Motion Hatch: Helping Motion Designers Do Better Business

[00:00:00] Hayley: So recently I was kindly invited along to speak at Freelancers and Friends hosted by Doodle Do Studio in Manchester. I had a chat with the studio owner, James, and we talked about his views on niche and down in the podcast, we cover what niche and down can look like for your business and how your unique processes can be the key to standing out.

[00:00:19] I like. Talking about positioning a lot because then I think you can be like, oh, this is our process and this is how we do things as well, and and I think a lot of those kind of things can really help you to stand out too. We answered some audience questions about pricing structures and why it's important to really think about what you name your packages.

[00:00:37] James: If you call it like the slow and steady, no one wants that. And then if we call it like on speed, then I love you. I'm, you might get arrested.

[00:00:46] Hayley: We also had a discussion about LinkedIn and what's working right now on social media. If I was starting out as a freelancer today, I would definitely start on LinkedIn first.

[00:00:56] 'cause I think like LinkedIn's still giving you the best reach.

[00:00:59] James: Hey, why don't you tell us where, where'd it all start for you in this like crazy creative world?

[00:01:04] Hayley: Um, I think I got in the industry around 2008 as I felt like it makes it feel. A bit old, but that's fine. And yeah, I went and studied film prediction at university and then I got a job in London 'cause there wasn't as much like happening up here at the time, which is sad 'cause I'm originally from Durham so I did, you know, would prefer to be in up north.

[00:01:26] But I went to do film prediction. It's. Sage University and then ended up getting a job as a junior graphics operator in London. So I didn't have to become a runner, which at the time I thought was amazing. But what a graphics operator does is basically we did sports broadcasting, so we put out the live graphics, like on football and boxing, and it was very like late nights shift work, that kind of stuff.

[00:01:50] So it was still. Quite tough first job, I think I got paid about 18 grand a year for like a job in London, which is, you know, crazy. And I dunno how I survived. Probably lots of baked beans. But, um, then, uh, I was like, where are the most creative people in this building? Because I was sort of putting a lot of graphics out, but I wasn't really designing anything, you know?

[00:02:14] So, um, I thought, well, the motion designers, you know, they make. All these graphics that go on screen that seems more fun to me. And just doing less late nights doing boxing and stuff like that was appealing. So I um, actually at the time nearly ended up getting made redundant. You know, it was that kind of 2008 time it makes sense 'cause they were crushing down the, um, operation team, but there was actually a junior motion design role going.

[00:02:39] So everybody in my department was trying to get that job as well. And we had to do this. Like big pitch in our own time. And I had to like do a pitch to my boss and I don't know if anyone's ever done that, but it's almost like harder to pitch people that you know very well. And I, I had to, you know, work late at night and then I brought this pitch in and I was like really desperate to get this job and I ended up getting it.

[00:03:01] So I felt very lucky. 'cause obviously, you know, sadly some of my, um, team members, uh, got major in London at that time. So I went into that junior motion design role. Um, and then I. I'd been working there for about three years or something like that. So I was like, okay, I wanna get outta sport. I don't really like football.

[00:03:20] And I went for another job and because I felt like, oh, I haven't done anything else apart from sport. No one's gonna hire me. You know, I feel like we all have this imposter syndrome sometimes, don't we? Where we, we always kind of doubt our skills, you know? Really, I think. Looking back, I should have gone for like a middleweight motion design job.

[00:03:39] I was skilled enough, I just didn't have the experience outside of sports. So that kind of made me feel less confident. So I saw this job in advert and it said, you know, this is a production company. And it was quite small. And I was like, okay, cool. And then, um, I turned up to the, into the offices at Linden and they, and then they said, oh yeah, you can go there.

[00:03:59] You go up to Google on the fourth floor. And I was like. Google. What, what do you mean Google? So I was like, oh my God, am I gonna go for an interview at Google? And I, I wasn't prepared and I didn't know, but basically what it turned out to be was the internal prediction company at Google. So I was like, okay, now I'm just thrown into this interview.

[00:04:17] And, um, I feel like, like all of my face must have just gone like completely white. And I got up there and, and then I started talking to them. And because I had quite a bit of experience, you know, for a junior role did end up getting that. Jobs. So that was really cool. So I worked at Google for about four years and then after that I went freelance.

[00:04:36] That was like 2015. And then

[00:04:38] James: what was it like working for Google at that time?

[00:04:40] Hayley: Yeah, everyone always wants to know. They're like, what's it like working for Google? It was really good at that

[00:04:44] James: time. You got it. Not only is it Google, but, but obviously YouTube and video is, yeah, the notion is, is starting to, you know, I remember that period because internet speeds were catching up with with video and we were then able to.

[00:04:59] Create stuff that more people were seeing.

[00:05:01] Hayley: Yes. I think it was a really funny time. So now I have a YouTube channel, right. And it's quite funny 'cause I remember like being in the toilet, sort of like laughing a bit at the YouTubers, like these young like makeup YouTubers or something thinking like, oh, what are they doing?

[00:05:14] You know, like it seemed silly. It seemed like something that like, I guess like older people or it seemed very like young at the time and it was very new, so it felt. A little bit silly like to me, and like these brands literally were just starting to make their channels and stuff. I think I remember we did this massive project, um, and we like helped Malibu or something build their channel or something like that, and it just seemed like, oh, okay.

[00:05:39] Like a little bit of a quirky thing. And like, now obviously we know like everyone gets YouTube all the time and stuff like that. And I wish I'd started my channel back then 'cause then it would be like. Probably have like millions of subscribers. No, it wouldn't be, I would still be here. I would come. Um, but yeah, it was great.

[00:05:55] Obviously loads of snacks, like that's what everyone wants to know about. Right? There was so many snacks we had. You could literally have like breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Um, we had a double decker red bus in one of the offices. That was like meeting rooms, you know. Just crazy stuff, really. So it is

[00:06:10] James: all the stuff we think it is.

[00:06:12] Yeah. Basically, yeah. Slides and, yeah.

[00:06:13] Hayley: Yeah. But like everyone else says, oh, when you start working at Google, you put on like the Google stone, but I didn't get any fatter, but I did get high cholesterol from eating too many eggs and too many cakes. So, yeah, it, it is what everyone kind of says. It's

[00:06:28] James: So what came?

[00:06:28] What came next?

[00:06:29] Hayley: Yeah. So then I went freelance. It was really hard and they like, obviously you've got all the free food and stuff, so you say they're probably longer than you want to because you're like, but the free food, right? Like, it is so good. So, um, yeah. So eventually I was like, okay, come on, you need to.

[00:06:46] Go freelancer. I've been working full-time as a motion designer for about seven years at that point. So a lot longer, you know. But what that gave me I think was, 'cause I worked my to a senior and I'd run like big teams of animators, um, at Google and stuff like that. So it gave me a lot of confidence of like, knowing how the kind of behind, behind the scenes, like productions stuff works for like a big brand obviously, and like hiring, even hiring like studios in for us, like help us and stuff like that.

[00:07:14] So, um, I think that was good, you know, in a way. So when I went freelance, I felt probably a lot more confident than some people do, but still scared, obviously it's a massive scary jump. Um, but yeah, so then I went freelance and then was just doing the whole thing where you go around to all the agencies in London.

[00:07:30] Obviously this was pre Covid, so just going in house every day and you hadn't paid a day rate. Um, and I just kind of felt. I felt like, um, not that I saw like, oh, I know what I'm doing, but I felt like I felt more confident in it probably because of my experience being in the industry a long time. And also just like my family has had a lot of businesses and stuff like that, and I just felt like, oh, actually I really like.

[00:07:53] Like talking to people and this business stuff and networking and you know, I don't mind like talking about money and stuff like that. And lots of my friends are like really struggling. And people who are, honestly, I felt like they're way more talented than me. They should be getting paid much more than me.

[00:08:08] They should be getting more clients, but they weren't. And I was like thinking like, why doesn't anyone talk? About this stuff, like, about, you know, how to charge, you know, like there was, I think skill of motion was sort of just coming up, so I just kind of felt like, oh, it'd be cool. It's like there was something like that, but where people talked more about the business side of things and you always think, um, yeah, someone else should do that.

[00:08:29] You know, why doesn't someone do that for ages? And then, um, I was. At the time it was very much like everyone's writing blogs and that kind of thing. And I was like, well, I'm dyslexic. I'm not a good writer, so I dunno. Like I can't do that. So then, um, I met a guy who started a podcasting company and he was like, you should start a podcast.

[00:08:47] And I dunno whether he was just trying to get me to be his client, but anyway, the next day I know I like. Started a podcast, I was really scared and I was like, oh my God, everyone's gonna hate my voice. What's gonna happen? You know? Um, anyway, and then we, I just felt like then I had a podcast and like people started talking about it and it was, it was really crazy.

[00:09:05] So, yeah.

[00:09:06] James: So then how does that become motion hatch?

[00:09:08] Hayley: So it was called the Motion Hatch podcast, so kind of had like the name and stuff like that. This was like 2017. I think. It just, everyone found out about it very quickly 'cause it was like the only thing like that at the time, especially just. Just for motion designers anyway.

[00:09:24] And I feel like everyone was very inspired by it. So then it's sort of like people kept asking me like more and more questions. And then, um, I think the first, um, product that I did was a freelance contract bundle. 'cause I was like, you know what? We'll solve every, everyone's problem is if they had a contract and all their terms up front.

[00:09:40] But it was actually like really hard to make because I had to hire a lawyer in the us. 'cause I have like quite a big US audience and then like a solicitor in the uk. I like to make these contracts, you know, and learn all about it. So now I know quite a lot, like obviously, you know, don't ask me legal advice, I'm not a liar.

[00:09:56] But, um, I know like a lot about what should be in there. But that was quite hard first. Kind of product to make, but I was really just wanting to like do the thing that I felt would have the biggest impact. 'cause although we don't want to negotiate and give our clients contracts and stuff like that, that's what we should be doing, right?

[00:10:13] So I was like, how can I like equip everyone with the best kind of tool for them? So we did that and that helped a little bit 'cause it meant that, you know, I made like a little bit of money, but I was still full-time freelancing. And then I also, um, built a program called the MoGraph Mastermind, which was basically like getting groups of people together.

[00:10:33] It's like a kind of peer support group to like talk to each other about their businesses. So we did that for a while and then. I got to this point where I was like, oh no, I'm doing like full-time freelance and I'm doing this and I'm like totally getting burnt out. 'cause I remember going to work all day and you know, as a freelance sometimes you're working like 10, 12 hour days and stuff like that.

[00:10:53] And then coming home or at the weekend as well, like doing the podcast recording stuff. And then, um, I was like, this can't continue like this. So it just basically, it felt like I was running like two full-time businesses. And then I thought, well, okay, what's. What do I actually want to do? So then I decided to like give motion hatch a chance, like full time because I was making a little bit of money, um, from this stuff.

[00:11:16] Obviously we're doing lots of free stuff too. So I did that and then, yeah, I've just been doing that ever since and it's great. And I've grown the team now and Chrissy's here and she's, um, my content manager. Yes, it's exciting.

[00:11:27] James: Thanks for sharing the whole journey. 'cause that's really, yeah. It helps us like imagine where, where you've come from and, and what your lens is on, on all this.

[00:11:37] We'll open it up in a bit, but, um, I suppose I, I've got few that to kick us off. The landscape's been, and I dunno if other people in the room would identify with this, but I, I would say the last couple years, maybe two or three years even

[00:11:50] James (2): mm-hmm.

[00:11:50] James: Have been quite a turbulent landscape in our sector. We had, you know, people affected by the writer strikes and we had.

[00:11:57] Obviously coming out of Covid and we've had, uh, I know personally I've found probably a couple years ago was, was probably the toughest in, in spite of lockdown and everything else, probably two years ago was the, was the hardest year for us. What's your take on. The current landscape and where it's headed.

[00:12:15] And, and then perhaps off the back of that, you can give us some insights of what, what's working in, in attracting clients at the moment.

[00:12:23] Hayley: Like, I think definitely a lot of people that I've spoken to, like the last, like you say, two to three years, sometimes people say like, 23 was the worst year, 24 was the worst year, you know?

[00:12:33] And I think especially in, um, motion design, I think also what happened was because we had like. Obviously Covid and people couldn't film. So then everyone was like, all right, let everybody do animation. So then it was like, we got a bit panicked at the beginning, but then we realized, oh, actually it's a massive like opportunity for animators and motion designers and stuff like that.

[00:12:54] So that was, you know, all kind of good, you know, you know, say, but um, so that was good. But then what happened was, I think a lot of other people were like, oh, there's lots of work here. So then we kind of had an influx of new animators and motion designers. So now I think we've got like. A surplus. And then also everyone has gone back to live action and stuff too.

[00:13:15] So that's what I think if we're talking about particularly the motion design industry and animation, I feel like that's had a massive impact. So we've got like lots of people and then also like with tech layoffs, stuff like that. So a lot of like really good freelancers like going back into the market, which I guess applies across the board.

[00:13:33] Um, so I think that's kind of. What's created basically less work around, which is hard because it means it's a struggle for people to get work. Yeah. I think it's hard and what, what I've been thinking about and what I've seen that's like working more for people is obviously like. Getting in person and meeting people and building trust with people.

[00:13:54] And I think that's really good. And it sounds obvious, but we have to be like consciously making this effort to like meet people in person and talk to people. Because if you see someone face to face and you tell them about what you do, you know, just make friends with people, it builds trust straight away where I think it's.

[00:14:09] So much harder to do that online. Mm. You know, if you see someone's post, it's not like the same as you meeting them today in this room, you know? So I think trying to do that, but also what we've been talking about, motion hatch more is like getting out of our like kind of industry bubbles as well. So like this event I think is great because you've got like a mixture of disciplines.

[00:14:29] Lots of the time I go to events where it's like just motion designers. Talking to just other motion designers. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. So then that's, that's good. And it's good to have that like peer to peer network, but I feel like when that work like drops, obviously people aren't giving as much work to each other.

[00:14:45] So you need to be talking to like people outside of your industry. So I think like, although I feel like that's scarier. Because you're like, what? I've gotta go and talk to the people that aren't maybe creative and that kind of thing, or like figuring out even like where are those events? I think it's hard, but I feel like that's where like kind of positioning yourself and like also like niching down or thinking about like.

[00:15:07] Who are my ideal clients and what problems can I solve for them, can help you to really more identify like where they are and where they might hang out, and where maybe you are the only animator in the room or the only graphic designer in the room rather than like, you know, one of 10 or something like that.

[00:15:21] James: I'm, I'm afraid of niching. I'm gonna be honest with you. Yes. Um, let's talk about it. Yeah. Okay. That's,

[00:15:30] Hayley: should I

[00:15:30] James: put my feet up and

[00:15:31] Hayley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's have a coach have a

[00:15:34] James: little therapy session. Yeah. And here, here's some of my other people might have other thoughts. Um mm-hmm. One is, look what happened at lockdown.

[00:15:42] If I had a niched in hospitality or, yes. Yes. So there's that fear. There's also, there's just the, I remember going to a, I won't, I won't say who it is, but I remember going to, we were doing some overflow work for a, an agency that niched in pharma.

[00:15:58] Hayley: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:59] James: And then they literally had like banks of desks that were like, I got the tour and it was like.

[00:16:04] This is the kidney desks. I was like, what? And it was, it's like people were waking up every day and figuring out how to animate kidneys. And I was like, oh man. Yeah, yeah. Just, just shoot me now. Like, so I, I, that's an extreme example, but I, I love the variety.

[00:16:24] Hayley: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:25] James: But I also get the tension of everyone pays more to see a specialist.

[00:16:30] You know, everyone. Yes. All of that. So what, how do you go all in? Like what are the things that give you that confidence and how do you know which

[00:16:41] Hayley: Yes,

[00:16:41] James: like which niche you're gonna choose like.

[00:16:45] Hayley: So I think there's, oh, there's so much to unpack here, but I'll do my best. So I think first what we need to think about when we think about like niching down, I don't think it's just about like industry and market.

[00:16:56] Like obviously that's like the go to what everyone thinks about because like it makes sense like, oh, I'm an motion designer, like for doctors or something. That's always a rubbish example, but always comes into my head. Um, but you know, that kind of thing where you're like. Go into like a certain like type of other market, our industry, but then you can also think about like, well, okay, do we do like.

[00:17:18] This one style, you know? And I feel like that's maybe like getting less and less of a thing. But that's definitely a thing where like people go to you because they know like you do that one thing really well. Um, skill as well. Like I feel like that's one that's quite difficult. 'cause you know, if you remember like.

[00:17:35] A long time ago when like things were a bit harder to get hold of, like think of like flames and different things like that where you're like the only person that like has that skill and has access to that, like software and things like that. That's also hard now because all the tools are so accessible, right?

[00:17:49] We all kind of have access to them. So there's like different ways to do that. But then there's also thinking about like your product offering and I think you can kind of niche down in that way as well. And also like process as well come onto that. So like one of my students, Luke Stanley, he um, basically like came to me and said, I really wanna, you know, niche down into just doing motion brand guidelines and I just wanna do that like every day.

[00:18:14] You know? So that's like for different companies and different industries, isn't it? But it's like. It's almost like a motion design product, you know? So it's like this, he's like offering the same thing to them over and over again. And what's really cool about that too is like he can get like really good at that and develop all of his processes and like make it really like slick and, and more efficient.

[00:18:35] And then that means that he will make more money and save more time and all of that kind of stuff too. So I think that's really awesome. But also I think, you know, sometimes we mix up like niche and down and positioning, and I also do this as well. So I think it's worth like talking about the difference.

[00:18:49] So like when you're thinking about like, how do I position myself in the industry to stand out, you know, it might also be about like, okay, what, what are our, what's our mission? What's our values? How are we explaining them as well? You know, as opposed to like niching, it's usually like, oh, we're going down this kind of vertical, you know?

[00:19:06] So I think it's worth just distinguishing. Between those and I think sometimes I mix 'em up and use them interchange also. It's worth reminding myself as well. But um, yeah, I like talking about positioning a lot because then I think you can be like, oh, this is our process and this is how we do things as well.

[00:19:22] And, and I think a lot of those kind of things can really help you to stand out too. So like if you're thinking about. What can I post on LinkedIn? You know, everyone's always asking me like, what can I post on social media that isn't just my work, especially animators, because you know, you can't like churn out like an animation every week.

[00:19:37] It's ridiculous. But you can start talking about like behind the scenes and your process and like bringing like more of you and your personality. And obviously that's easier if you are an individual, but if you're even like a studio thinking about like what as a studio is our mission and our values and how can we start like communicating that?

[00:19:55] Through like the kind of content and stuff and like trying to, you know, connect more with other people like that. So I know we kind of moved on a bit from niching, kind of moved into that, but no, that's

[00:20:04] good's good. I think

[00:20:05] that's like an easier way to start, right? Because like, although positioning is hard and thinking about, oh, what's my mission and my values and all this stuff is hard, but if you just wanna even start thinking about.

[00:20:16] Okay, well how can I like, assess each project that I do and go, well, I like this one because of this, and then well, let's try this kind. I like that 'cause of that. And like, is there like a little pattern forming, you know, or something like that. Or is it like a certain type of client? And then that means that then you can start to figure out, okay, well I like these types of clients.

[00:20:33] They all kind of, uh, in this sort of area, or they do the same kind of thing and, and they kind of go to events like this. Do you know what I mean? You can start like sort of. Building the map a little bit for yourself. And I, I feel like that's helpful.

[00:20:45] James: You touched slightly on sort of product Yes. And package kind of thing.

[00:20:49] Yeah. Just give us your take on, on that.

[00:20:51] Hayley: Yeah. I think it's, the way I like to explain productized services is it has to be like the same deliverable every time. Right? It's, 'cause that's why it's like product, it's like a product. Of a service. So it has to always be the same deli, like deliverable. So you are always giving the client the same thing and then also has to be constrained by like timeline and then also by price, right?

[00:21:13] So like one thing that always comes to my mind like is like, you know, I'll build you a website in a week and it costs this much and these are how many pages you get and things like that. It's quite easy, I think for web designers and, and stuff like that to think of that, or like a certain type of graphics package maybe like you just do, like graphics.

[00:21:30] Packages for YouTubers or, or something like that. Like, I dunno how lucrative that would be these days, you know? But that's like a good example. Like if you're an animator, you'd, you would give them a lower third, you would give them an intro you would do you see what I mean? And you would say, this is the timeline I'm doing.

[00:21:45] You are like dictating everything. That's how I explain like productized services. What was the question about productized service? Well, I suppose,

[00:21:52] James: what's your take on it? Does it, does it reduce the friction? Yeah. Is it a good thing to explore to, is it easier to buy?

[00:21:59] Hayley: Well, yeah, I think so because you are clear about what it is.

[00:22:02] So the problem, especially that I see in the motion design and animation industry is like. Well, more motion design because people think like, Mo, what is motion design? Do you know what I mean? Like people don't even really know what it is sometimes, so they might know that it not know that it solves their problems.

[00:22:17] So you've got this like big group of people who know they have a problem, but they don't know that maybe like motion design is a solution to that problem, like helping solve more products or whatever it is. So like usually if we're like freelance animators, motion designers, we like. Serving a small group of people who know about motion design, they know that's a solution to their problem.

[00:22:38] But if you think about like, who could use motion design or animation? It's like everyone, like loads of people, you know what I mean? Like probably every single business, but they might not really know what it is, you know? And maybe that doesn't apply to everyone, but just thinking about, or like if you're a sound designer, do, do people really understand like how important sound design is to animation, how it's like, almost like making up 50% of like how good something is, you know?

[00:23:03] Like it's our job to kind of explain that to our clients, and I feel like we find that really hard. The easy way to do that is if you like make a product or service, you know exactly what the product is, you know what problem it solves. It just makes marketing so much easier. You know, I think it's hard to get there.

[00:23:20] Yeah. And make, and make sure that it is something that people want and like lots of people want, and that you can do this like repeatable service. But I think once you're there, then it's easier to market. Whereas custom stuff, I think is, is more difficult to market.

[00:23:34] James: Yeah, it's a really good point. I, and I'm guilty of this, is, uh, I think everything we do is important to, to everyone.

[00:23:41] Do you know what I mean? Like, working on my own, uh, RM website is like the worst job for me because I'm like, no ever. Is this is amazing. And someone else goes, no one cares. I'm like, yes, they do. If they only knew, they would really care. And it's just not true. Like, um, so focusing on the problem, I think. I remember someone saying, no one wants a quarter inch drill.

[00:24:03] They want the quarter inch hole. And so the problem that you solve is a real, but. Mm-hmm. But finding out what the problem is in our industry is sometimes. Yeah. That's hard. Tricky. And it depends who the customer is. Right.

[00:24:14] Hayley: Exactly. And that's where the niche comes in and that's where prototype services come in.

[00:24:19] And it's not like you can't do that and do customer work as well.

[00:24:22] James: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Hayley: Like I feel like everyone thinks like, oh no, I have to. I mean, obviously it's hard. It's hard to like, 'cause maybe you want, you'd have to have like two different websites or something like that. But the way I see, like what we do as creatives going, I feel like we need to get better at communicating these kind of things and, and I think just even to like try and do like a test of that and try and start talking to people about some sort of offering that you do that maybe is just on the side to start with.

[00:24:48] I think it's a really good. Thing to start thinking about because these things are the things that make you stand out. You know, like if I go meet like five freelance motion designers and they all say, yeah, I do 2D animation. I'm like, mm-hmm. Cool. Like, I, I love you all and it's amazing and, but like what do you do that's different from these other people?

[00:25:09] You know? Like obviously your work might be slightly different. And I'm

[00:25:12] James: so, I'm so glad you said that. 'cause I had a secret question in my head that was like, can you fake K niche? Which isn't what you said. But it's how I interpret and that, and that is to say I can't, I remember seeing a, um, an agency that full service, and then they don't necessarily have a niche.

[00:25:29] Mm-hmm. But then they released this new business with this. But I knew it was the same team, same people, same amount of time they've got, but just in aerospace and we do some stuff in aerospace. I was like, oh, crap. Should have done that. But it was genius. It was like they present as niche because they have, they do genuinely have some things to say in that space and some.

[00:25:53] Proprietary knowledge and all of that sort of stuff. But they haven't cut off the rest of the

[00:25:59] Hayley: Exactly.

[00:26:00] James: You don't have to go, like, they're just No, they're communicating around the niche, which I think is a really smart wave.

[00:26:06] Hayley: As creative people, we, it's hard to get some of this data right sometimes, but if you start.

[00:26:12] Doing more niche chef and productizing, and I'm not, I mean, this isn't just like all I talk about, but since we're like talking about today, I think it just makes it really easy to sell because then you would have those case studies, you would have those results. Whereas normally, if you're doing everything.

[00:26:27] Custom every single time. And, and you might not even be privy to that.

[00:26:31] James: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Hayley: You know, and you don't have a process around that. You're probably not gonna get those results from the clients. So you, it's gonna be harder to sell stuff to other people because you're like, okay, we're coming at it like new every single time.

[00:26:43] And the other thing that I just wanted to add that you made me think about is try, don't try and shoehorn a solution for like a client who like. You are like, actually this is not the right problem. I remember that I was talking to quite a big animator and he said he was talking to someone and then, um, he said, actually this is not.

[00:27:04] Don't do an animation for this. Like, this is not what I do. Like, I don't think you should do that. Go do this other thing or whatever. Like, that's not my expertise. And then four years later or a couple of years later, they came back to him and then they said, okay, we're ready now. Like this is this other project or something like that.

[00:27:21] I feel like, and especially I remember like, oh, I just really wanna make this type of animation and I really want it to look like this. And I feel like we, and I've done it as well, like we have these kind of. Artistic aspirations and we're trying to sort of shoe hold that into our client projects sometimes, which I think is, you know, it's obviously we want to do that, but I feel like we need to really ask loads of questions and try and like understand their goals and their problems more.

[00:27:49] And I feel like that helps also at the end and ask them up front like. Hey, can I like understand more about this? And at the end, can you also tell me the results? So, you know, like, and it shows you them, that you also care more about their business too, instead of just being like, I wanna make this cool, fun thing, which we can do as well sometimes.

[00:28:08] James: Yes. What, what's your name first? Caroline. Caroline.

[00:28:11] Caroline: Uh, my question is around, yeah. Prioritization and pricing, would you say? It's a good idea to quite openly share. I have this product, bronze, silver, gold, the way I work on each product and share the price very openly. On your website or on your social media, or would you say pros and cons of just having it as a product, this is the process, but you reveal price in conversation later.

[00:28:38] How open should you be about that?

[00:28:40] Hayley: Yeah, I think it depends and I think you could do like a staged approach, so probably what I would do initially it was. Almost like run it as like a beta, like of the thing. So you know, like you try it out with a few clients, you make sure it's like the right price and do you see what I mean?

[00:28:56] You don't, I wouldn't dive into that like straight away. Um, then when you have confidence in that in the client and you know that it is the right price for them, I feel like it works especially well when you are doing more custom work and you're like, actually. Some people wanna solve this problem, but they don't have the budget.

[00:29:12] And maybe that's like the kind of lower pricing you do for them. And then the custom work like sort of comes later or something like that as well. So you could sort of almost like tear it up a little bit like that. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I feel like you could, you could take it through a process of like, well, this is a.

[00:29:28] Beta version, you know, and I'm not gonna like shout too much about the price. I'm gonna make sure that it's right for the client, like have a conversation with them about it before I kind of like release it to the world. And then you could also do like a bit more of a tiered approach. I think you mentioned this, like, you know where you have maybe your customer work at the top and then you have like a middle tier and then a lower tier, and you sort of let the.

[00:29:52] The clients sort of choose, you know, and then that we get onto like price anchoring and stuff like that, where you have like a very high kind of price product at the top. And then like the middle one, the lower one, and just psychology says like, most people go for middle one. Yeah. You know, like everyone knows this 'cause everyone looks at all these like SaaS companies and they always have it.

[00:30:11] Right? So it obviously works, you know, so just thinking about a few things around that. But I wouldn't start to do that straight away. And I know that there's also this thing about like, oh well if you know. We start to do that, we sort of become like, you know, like people are like looking out for menu and become sort of like order takers and stuff like that.

[00:30:28] But I think if you have your processes really dialed in and you know the problem that you're solving and you know the price point of most of those, like if it's the same, you know what I mean? Otherwise you might wanna have different tiers if they're like different types of clients and stuff like that.

[00:30:43] You know, it's, it, it is really tricky. There's. You know, unfortunately there's not like one perfect answer, but I think it's good to talk about these ideas and explore them and different business models because it can really help you, you know, to serve more clients and make more money and grow your business.

[00:30:59] James: I, I'd just a, a random one on package stuff, I would think about what you name them as well. So, bronze, silver, gold. There's an inherent. Quality attached to that. And actually the quality of everything you do is probably gonna be gold. But if you call it like slow and steady, no one wants that.

[00:31:17] Hayley: Yeah. So

[00:31:17] James: like, and then if you call it like ambitious and good, you wouldn't call it that, but you know what I mean.

[00:31:23] And then if you call it like, like on speed, then I live your uncle course you might get arrested. But you know what I mean? That there's a, there's a, I think attaching it to ambition as much as. Psychologically a really good way of presenting it. Any, any more questions from the floor? Yeah, Matt, by the way, hi Matt.

[00:31:46] Matt: I was just gonna ask, uh, what sort of industries and what sort of clients have you worked with that you found to be like the most successful and that you've enjoyed kind of working with the most as well?

[00:31:55] Hayley: Myself personally, or my students? Well, well, well for

[00:31:57] Matt: yourself.

[00:31:58] Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, my favorite, one of my favorite clients was like a data visualization studio.

[00:32:04] 'cause I was like, their only animator. So they sort of brought me in as like kind of the team lead. And then we used to like, scale up their teams. We worked for like the Gates Foundation and the United Nations and stuff like that. People think VIS is really dry, but like, they were like the best company at that.

[00:32:19] Like, they were like really amazing graphic designers and they made all these like. Really cool stuff. So that was just really fun to animate. And also they were just really nice people to work with, you know, that's kind of, yeah, comes down to that a lot, doesn't it? You know? So that was like one of my favorite freelance clients that I had.

[00:32:34] 'cause it was just different, you know? 'cause otherwise I was going a lot into like advertising agencies and doing like big brand stuff. But that wasn't always exciting and I like that 'cause it generally had like a bigger impact on the world, you know? It was, um. Stuff that was more like positive impact kind of vibe.

[00:32:50] Audience Member 1: Is it still worth posting on every social media platform? Is it still, do you still bother with things like Twitter X or do you just pour all your time into LinkedIn a little bit more time into Instagram? Like is there any. Value in hosting everything everywhere anymore? Or do you pour more time into one place than another?

[00:33:11] Hayley: Yeah, it's hard. So what, well, what we do, 'cause I have Christie's help and what are the, what I recommend other people do is probably slightly different. But what I think that, so right, if I was starting out as a freelancer today and I was thinking, right, what do I do? I would definitely start on LinkedIn first.

[00:33:28] 'cause I think like LinkedIn's still giving you the best reach, like organic reach. They are. Change their algorithm and stuff like that. And obviously I'm not a LinkedIn expert, but I spend a lot of time there. What's sort of happening with that a little bit now, which is a shame. 'cause I think two years ago it was like you could post anything.

[00:33:45] And especially if you're doing animation or something like that. 'cause lots of people weren't, it would, it would just throw it out to like loads of people and loads of people were getting clients, which was great. But now what they've done is they've sort of changed the algorithm a little bit so that, I know this isn't answering your question, but I just feel like it's helpful.

[00:34:02] Is that, um, if I'm posting about motion design, it's gonna show all my stuff to motion designers and not my potential clients. So you have to be like really strategic about what you are putting out there, you know, and have a strategy behind it. And we've got a, a social media guide that has like examples.

[00:34:21] It's completely free, and you download it and you've got 52 post examples. And it's based around the strategy of like awareness, attraction, action, advocacy. So you like. Basically warming your clients up and making them more aware of you. And then attraction, you know, might be more behind the scenes, something like that.

[00:34:40] And then action a more like the work kind of call to action post, but you're not just doing that all the time, you know? And advocacy could be something like a testimonial or a case study or something like that. So you, you have that. Different types of posts as well, which, um, also the algorithm likes to, so I think like, um, just, you know, just to be helpful a bit on the LinkedIn front, I would definitely start there at the moment.

[00:35:01] But obviously we know it changes over time. And to be honest, it's probably they're gonna crush the reach down as much as possible because they want people to start paying for ads. Like that's just what's gonna happen. That's happened with. Previous platforms. That's why I feel like Instagram now is really hard, but it does depend on who your clients are and where they hang out.

[00:35:20] Like I always say that like what might work for one person might not work for the other, but obviously we know like there's general stuff that's working for other people, so let's just try and use that a little bit to our advantage. So yeah, I would probably choose, I basically. Try and identify where my clients are and what's the easiest way to start.

[00:35:38] Put like 80% of my time there and then I probably experiment with like at like 20, the 20%. So like for example, we just went on Blue Sky and we're like, we haven't done anything yet, but we're like spend like tiny bit of time there, you know, because we know that other stuff works. Does that make sense? So you, you're not spreading yourself too thin because the problem that if you just try and post on every platform, we all know now they all want different formats.

[00:36:02] They all appreciate like slightly different types of posts written in slightly different ways. And I feel like especially as a freelancer, maybe as a studio, you can manage that a bit better and maybe have someone who's kind of over that. But I think it's hard. So I think you get more out of it if you just concentrate on one platform.

[00:36:20] Do that really well, really build your community as well and your network there because you get more out of actually just commenting on other people's posts and like, you know, building relationships and stuff like that. And another tool that I just discovered and I haven't tried out much yet, so don't, you know, use, use it, you know, if you want.

[00:36:39] But, um, it's called link bound. They're just, they, these like LinkedIn. People just brought it out. They're obviously not from LinkedIn, but, um, it's almost like a CRM that kind of like puts a layer over LinkedIn and it will help you see who's like the most engaged with your posts and who's seeing yourself the most and who's liking it and stuff like that.

[00:36:59] So that might help you figure out, well, okay, they're like a really warm lead, you know, uh, maybe a potential client. You could see where they're based and that kind of stuff. So, you know, it's, it's, sometimes it's worth like investing in tools like that because then you can see. Reach out to them and say, oh, you know, I saw that you were, uh, like, liked my last few posts.

[00:37:19] Like, I just wanted to say, hey, like you don't have to be like, I'm a freelance impression designer and you can hire me here. You know, I feel like everyone like goes in like hard straight away, don't they? Sometimes. Yeah. So, you know, just say, oh, you know, I basically, I see you. I appreciate you, and I feel like that goes a long way.

[00:37:34] James: Yeah. That's good advice. Anybody else? Yeah. What, what's your name? Sorry, Anna.

[00:37:38] Anna: So I am at the point where I've just. Basically jumped into freelance in Ready pig and scary way. But my issue that I'm having, and it's the social part, weirdly enough, I'm getting a lot of traction, but actually that's not actually equaling to clients.

[00:37:51] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Whereas I prefer a face-to-face like conversation. However, talking face-to-face with clients is actually trickier to actually get yourself in front of a client, in person. So I'm kind of curious to hear if you have any advice on terms of how do I get myself maybe in front of the clients.

[00:38:07] Firsthand to have those conversations because I totally agree with what you said as well. Going to freelance and events and actually being in events where there's different types of people is fantastic. And I've met so many fantastic freelancers and people, but not necessarily the people I need to have a conversation with to start getting work on Lightbox.

[00:38:24] James: Yeah, I mean we're, we're all guilty of networking with our competition. Yeah.

[00:38:31] No, it's not. You know, there's loads of benefits from it and I. I, I use the word competition, like just not really. 'cause we're, we're all friends. But, um, but yeah, so I, I think the point you made before about going and networking with where your clients are, and it's not just about knowing where they are online, it's about knowing where they are.

[00:38:51] The real world. The other thing I'd say is do what other people aren't, aren't doing. So you send me an email with the CV and the show real, I might look at it, put a letter through the door, I guarantee I read it, which is so like dinosaur and old school. But I'm telling you, like I'm just telling you, uh, I've had maybe two cvs in eight years that came through the door and I read both of them and, and fully.

[00:39:17] Like, 'cause it felt like an investment from them. And I've also had the email that goes, dear sir, or whatever, um, I love the work of your studio. I really feel like I'd fit in and I think my skills would compliment your skills perfectly. And da da da. And then every one of my competitors copied in on the, on the two thing.

[00:39:37] Uh, which you're like, oh no,

[00:39:40] please.

[00:39:41] Um, so I'll tell you which one of those works better. Um, so I, I do. I'd, I'd get personal. Without getting stalkery.

[00:39:51] Hayley: Yes, that's, yeah. It's a hard,

[00:39:54] James: it's

[00:39:55] Hayley: a fine line.

[00:39:55] James: It is a fine line, but I think we can find it.

[00:39:58] Hayley: Yeah. Another cool thing that, um, I know a lot of my students do as well is they, um, you know, if they go to a new city or something, they'll just like look up the studios or something like that, um, that they wanna work at, and they'll say, Hey, I'm just in town.

[00:40:13] Like. Do you mind if I pop in for coffee and say hi? Most of the time that works, like people are pretty nice and you know, if we're talking about like studios and I think you're like doing producing. So that is still relevant to you, isn't it? Like you might wanna work for, you know, some of those kind of businesses.

[00:40:28] I think it would be a bit harder for like a direct client, but you know, if we're talking about agencies and stuff like that. Yeah, I feel like that's. People like, I mean obviously you are very open to that. Yeah. So, you know, like that kind of thing can be really helpful. 'cause then you get like a one-on-one chat with the, you know, the people that work there.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:45] Anna: Ly for me, I've always benefited from being with someone face to face rather than just on messaging. 'cause I think sometimes on messaging you don't come across the way you specifically are in person. Like, I don't quite like. A bubbly and chatty person, but in an email that's really hard to convey that I'm dead bubbly.

[00:41:01] So I think that's the pros and cons. I think it's just realiz, fingering out. What's the fine balance of actually getting yourself in front of it without coming across as like desperate or needy, but also still coming across as like professional. Like, I know what I'm doing and I'm here to behind help you type of thing.

[00:41:16] Hayley: I think how I look at social media is. Obviously you wanna get in front of people, in person as much as possible. 'cause it's really quick to build trust. Where I think social media comes in is like when you can't do that or like when you've met someone and then you say, Hey, let, oh, let's follow each other on LinkedIn.

[00:41:32] And then later, like you're posting and then they see your posts so they're reminded of you as well. So it's like a top of mind thing. It's not just like a discovery thing.

[00:41:40] James: On that note about, um, it just triggered a thought I looked on. I look on LinkedIn and. Everyone is smashing it. Everyone's like doing great.

[00:41:53] Hayley: I feel like it was, besides that, everyone's

[00:41:55] James: got loads of work. I'm like, it's just me. Right? So, and, and I, and I sort of get it, but I think the, I think the rationale goes something like, don't, don't look desperate, right? Yes. Don't, don't look like you haven't got work. 'cause that's not gonna be appealing.

[00:42:14] Don't, and kind of like fake it till you make it. Sort of thing. What's your take on that? Like, I, I don't, I don't know if I wanna subscribe to that. I don't like. Is it true?

[00:42:25] Hayley: No, I don't like the idea of like, fake it until you make it. I like the idea of thinking like, who am I and how can I like, put that across, you know?

[00:42:34] And if I was like a freelance, a freelance motion designer, now I, I would, I think you only need to post like once a week. You know, if that you putting a lot of time into like actually talking to people and that coming and let their posts like, you know, 'cause like you say, like people are posting a lot more on there now, which is actually great.

[00:42:51] 'cause it means that you can interact with them before you maybe reach out to them on a DM or something like that. Does that make sense? So you're, I think what I'm saying, building when,

[00:42:59] James: when I say people are smashing it, I don't mean they're smashing LinkedIn. Oh, right. It looks like they're smashing life.

[00:43:05] Hayley: Oh, right. That's just like, and work. Yeah. But they all feel the same as you. Right. Do you know, like, this

[00:43:11] James: is my question, like, is it the case that if we look like we're smashing it, everyone will want a piece? Or if we got that wrong, like No, I, because I've, I've noticed a couple of people post quite vulnerably about,

[00:43:26] Hayley: I think that's good and,

[00:43:27] James: and it's.

[00:43:29] Draw me in. I remember chatting to a guy, not in our industry, but a guy who, he just, like, even in person, he was smashing it like everything would, would turn to gold. And you know, you're just like, wow. I, I, and my, it left me feeling like I have nothing to contribute to your life. Like, I can only make it worse, but, uh, but, but I can't, I can't help you.

[00:43:52] Like you're way ahead of me. When it all unraveled and it turned out he couldn't pay his like bus fare.

[00:43:59] Hayley: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:00] James: I was. Why didn't you tell me? Like, I would've helped like kind of opened, I can open some doors. You don't wanna be saying that on LinkedIn necessarily, but where's the, what's your take on

[00:44:12] Hayley: that?

[00:44:12] Yeah, it, it's like we were saying, a lot of this stuff is like a fine line, isn't it? And I, I think like. Also what I've, the more personal posts and the more things about like personality or like people's, like what they're doing in their personal time and stuff like that. On LinkedIn, I actually think are doing much better.

[00:44:28] Like really if you put a picture of your face on there, like the algorithm loves it. It's like showing you are, if you follow me on LinkedIn now, you'll be like, Hailey's always posting a massive picture of a face. It's really weird. But like, you know, like the more personal stuff, you know, we try and like hide behind the work sometimes and I feel like that's like not good and you know, I don't wanna like turn everyone into like content creators, you know?

[00:44:50] But I think like showing a bit of personality and if you can get a little bit on the camera, you can like film yourself working or something like that. Those things, like people like this.

[00:44:59] James: But this is good. Yeah, I know. It's good for me to hear, but that's, I know, I knew I,

[00:45:02] Hayley: because like imagine like I'm gonna

[00:45:04] James: judge you.

[00:45:05] I'm like, but

[00:45:05] Hayley: you're doing this.

[00:45:06] James: Go away,

[00:45:07] Hayley: but you are doing this. Like, so these things like this, like, you know, it helps, you know, like, and showing people like more behind the scenes and stuff like that. But I would just say. Basically how I look at it and I still think of this and it still happens to me now, I think like if I post something and it's crap and no one cares, no one's gonna see it anyway.

[00:45:26] So who cares? We might as well just keep trying and like putting our best foot out there and trying to be ourselves and just trying to connect with other people. 'cause that's all we're trying to do, you know? And people's like bullshit radars like really high. So they know like if you are like.

[00:45:42] Pretending or whatever, you know, I feel like if you just put, try and just like say, okay, I'm just gonna, I dunno if posting once a week seems too scary, I would say, let's try and post like once a month and just like build up that practice and that skill. And I'm not saying like. Oh yeah, you do that. It's gonna get your clients straight away and stuff like that.

[00:46:00] That's like not true. You know, sometimes it does. Like my, the guy, Luke, who I mentioned, he did one post about his motion brand guidelines thing. 'cause I said, do you know what you should do? You should just start telling people about it. And then he ended up getting two clients from that one post. But that's like not what I was expecting.

[00:46:15] Right. But what I'm saying is it just gives you more shots. In lieu of not being able to come to events like this and get in person, you know, because, you know, we all know social media isn't perfect and I'm not like advocating for social media. I'm just saying what do we do when we can't go in person, we can't meet people.

[00:46:33] We, we like have to use that as tools for our business. Right? Yeah. Delete Instagram from your phone though. Don't look at it for personal reasons, like I don't, you know, and just try and be like, it's a tool for work, you know? Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end of this show. If you enjoy this podcast, please don't forget to leave us a rating and review on whatever platform you're listening on.

[00:46:55] To make this easier for you, you can go to motion hatch.com/rate. I highly recommend you go and check out Doodledo's work. They're a really awesome studio in Manchester and I really appreciate them letting me come and speak at their Freelancers and Friends event. If you are in Manchester, in the uk, then why not Pop along to freelancers and friends and I'll see you at the next one.

[00:47:18] Thanks so much for listening all the way to the end. I appreciate you. See ya.